On this episode of The Diff recorded Wednesday, May 6th 2020, Joel catches up with Cami Williams, a developer advocate and colleague on the
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The Breeze Has Been Shot With Cami Williams
[00:00:00] Joel Marcey: [00:00:00] On this episode of the diff recorded Wednesday, May 6th 2020, I catch up with Cami Williams, a developer advocate and colleague of mine on the
[00:00:40] Hi everyone. Welcome back. Uh, we're back with our first episode of 2020 of The Diff. It's been a, a bit of a hiatus and I can't be more excited actually for those that may not know, Cami Williams is a developer advocate colleague of mine at
[00:01:01] Hi Cami, welcome to The Diff.
[00:01:03] Cami Williams: [00:01:03] Hello everyone. This is my first podcast, and I was just telling Joel, I'm very nervous.
[00:01:09] Joel Marcey: [00:01:09] We're all nervous, we're all sweaty, but no one can see us, so that's okay. Um, so as you know, um, we are recording this in a really unique time in the history of the world, um, middle of a global pandemic.
[00:01:23] And, um, first thing I'd like to do is extend my heartfelt thanks to all those fighting to take care of those that are afflicted from this disease. And, um, I basically tried to do that anywhere, anywhere, anywhere. I'm online, so, and shout it from the rooftops that those folks are really heroes and, um, really appreciate them.
[00:01:42] Uh, both of us, Cami and I are recording this at home. Uh, so I want this episode to be as authentic as possible. So if you hear random noises like a dog, um, maybe a kid running into the room or something like that, I might not even edit that out today. So you can kind of think of this as like, The [00:02:00] Diff - Real World, or something like that right.
[00:02:02] Um, so anyway, let's get started. Uh, Cami, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
[00:02:08] Cami Williams: [00:02:08] Sure, yeah. Hi everybody. I'm Cami. It's nice to meet all of you. I'm pretending to shake everyone's hand. Um, I'm apologizing that mine are clammy. Um, so I started at
[00:02:29] I'm a developer advocate for the
[00:02:54] Um. But yeah, so, uh, I, I've been [00:03:00] really into making videos, doing live streams, writing blog posts. I, I enjoy doing that more than actually speaking to people in person. Uh, because I feel like, first of all, if I make a mistake, I can edit it out, which is really nice. Live coding can be scary, but I feel like if you're live streaming coding, it's a little bit more personable.
[00:03:20] People can see that you're real and you make mistakes. Um, and so that has probably been my favorite thing about working on this team thus far, aside from working with the lovely people on the
[00:04:02] So it's like we're working for a startup in a big company, which is really cool.
[00:04:07] Joel Marcey: [00:04:07] Yeah. Yeah. I wanna I want to, um, kind of build upon what you said about the media effort that you were talking about. So if anyone who's listening has noticed a spike in our social media content and our traffic, you really have Cami to thank for that.
[00:04:21] She's, as she said, she's kind of leading our new media strategy, doing an awesome job. Um, you definitely need to check out the open source, uh, YouTube channel,
[00:04:40] Um, and definitely check out at FB open source on Twitter because that's as active as ever. Um, so yeah, great job with that, Cami. We really appreciate it.
[00:04:48] Cami Williams: [00:04:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our YouTube analytics said that our view count was something like 10000% up. Which is great.
[00:04:56] Joel Marcey: [00:04:56] yeah, 10000% infinite percent. That's really close in the [00:05:00] world of analytics.
[00:05:00] I think that's 10000% increase is probably pretty high. Yeah. Um, so. The way I thought we do this podcast is a little different than maybe we've done with the other episodes. I thought we'd have a little fun maybe playing a social game of back and forth questioning. Um, so like I asked a question of you, Cami, you can ask the question to me. Are you down with something like that?
[00:05:24] Is that cool?
[00:05:24] Cami Williams: [00:05:24] Heck yeah,
[00:05:25] Joel Marcey: [00:05:25] let's do that. Alright. So I, I'm not gonna count the, uh, tell us about yourself as the first question. So I'm going to start with the first question, if that's okay. Um, so. Speaking of like social media, how do you get so popular on social media? Like what's your secret of your social media popularity?
[00:05:45] Cami Williams: [00:05:45] Yeah, it's actually, my journey with social media has been very interesting. So, um, when I was in college, I was kind of against Twitter. I didn't think that it was something [00:06:00] that was useful. And fast forward to today, I feel like Twitter is just my favorite place to be, but also my dumping ground for any random thoughts.
[00:06:09] So when I joined Twitter, uh, it was because I was interested in an internship. At the company. And I was at the Grace Hopper conference for celebration of women in computing, and Twitter was there. And I thought before I talked to the people from Twitter, I should get a Twitter account. Um, but after that I didn't really use it.
[00:06:29] And then I discovered the world of conspiracy theories and I thought they were really fun. And the internet troll that I am, I decided to tweet a lot about how the moon wasn't real, and I want to preface to all of the audience members here. I think the moon is real. I think the earth is round. I, I trust me, I'm not like a genuine conspiracy theorist.
[00:06:52] I'm just an internet troll. But when I started tweeting about it, I got a lot of. flat earther [00:07:00] followers and people who also like conspiracy theories. And so that was like my first introduction into social media and sharing content. And then when I graduated college, I thought, okay, now I have to be a serious business lady.
[00:07:14] And I started tweeting about code. So my follower growth is pretty interesting. I have a sprinkling of people who used to also follow me because I would stream video games on Twitch. Um, when Twitter analytics, speaking of analytics used to have information about the demographics. Mine was very widespread.
[00:07:35] I remember probably the only common factor between everyone was that they liked milk or something like that. It was a weird demographic to get. But now, I would say that my secret is probably just tweeting about things that I like. Things that are interesting, a lot of them have to do with tech. Um, it also helps to have a sister who's verified on Twitter, who retweets and likes [00:08:00] everything that I do.
[00:08:01] Um, but you know, it goes beyond just having a sister who's verified. It's also just networking with other people who are passionate and interested about tech. I think, um one of the things I learned in my career is it helps to find a mentor, but also be a mentor. I've kind of, pay it. Forward in that sense, and I think that could be very true with social media.
[00:08:22] Joel Marcey: [00:08:22] Yeah. I wonder if Twitter's ever going to bring back the verification process.
[00:08:27] Cami Williams: [00:08:27] I know. I'm waiting for it. I'm, I want to be first in line if it does.
[00:08:32] Joel Marcey: [00:08:32] Yeah, I was, I was like, what's the criteria to be verified? I imagine you have to have some number of followers and give them your license and make sure you're really real.
[00:08:42] So I always like the threshold should always be one less than the number of followers that I have and that way I can be verified .
[00:08:53] You know, I don't have that many followers, but you know, being verified, maybe if it's like a chicken and egg problem, you get [00:09:00] verified, you get more followers.
[00:09:01] Cami Williams: [00:09:01] Right, exactly. I feel like if people see that blue check, it's such a status symbol, which you know as someone who doesn't like status symbols. It's kind of like, no, I don't want that.
[00:09:12] But then secretly it's like, Oh yes, I really do
[00:09:14] Joel Marcey: [00:09:14] Right your comments filter to the top and all these really long Twitter threads. Right. Cause you have a check mark by you.
[00:09:20] Cami Williams: [00:09:20] Yeah. So Joel, what is like your favorite thing to follow on Twitter? Or what do you like the best? What's your favorite social media platform or aspects of social media?
[00:09:32] Joel Marcey: [00:09:32] So I'm a political junkie. Um, yeah. So I really, I, so here's, here's, here's my secret. I don't follow a lot of political people on Twitter, um, because I really want to focus my account on mostly tech stuff. There's a couple of people I follow on Twitter that's political, but I have a list, a private list of all the, of like 166 to 200 political figures that I follow.
[00:09:59] And I [00:10:00] just secretly every day, go through that list and get my political, uh, fix on, um,
[00:10:07] Cami Williams: [00:10:07] The ultimate lurker, as some might say.
[00:10:09] Joel Marcey: [00:10:09] I am very much a political lurker, and I've always had this issue. It was like, I, like, I have these, I live in these two worlds. I'm a tech person, right? And most of the people I believe that follow me are mostly in that world. And I, and, but I do love the political world too. And I always feel like, I really want to say something political. I want to comment on the happenings of the day, but I feel like should I have two separate accounts for that? Should I do it from my own account? Cause I don't want to like drive people away or, you know, say something that's controversial maybe, but, um.
[00:10:46] That's kind of my, I don't know, my guilty pleasure. Just to follow politics online, follow politics, social media. Um, I also listen to, like, I also follow a lot of tech [00:11:00] personalities, uh, and listen to their podcasts and those sorts of things. But. Mostly, um, it's political stuff for me. Yeah. Maybe that's just like my, my way to escape the everyday work that I do tech, uh, you know, on technology.
[00:11:15] So this is my like, side thing that I like. I don't know does that answer your question.
[00:11:19]Cami Williams: [00:11:19] No, it totally does.
[00:11:20] I think I, that resonates with me. I, I don't like getting political publicly, but sometimes I feel like as people who are online, we owe it to people to share an opinion. I don't know. I go back and forth.
[00:11:37] I guess my escape with social media, like the reason why I would have a fake Twitter is probably for reality, TV, trash. Uh, that would probably be the thing that I hide first about myself versus my political affiliation.
[00:11:51] Joel Marcey: [00:11:51] Reality TV, reality TV is awesome. I'll say that with you. So if it's trash, then I'm with you.
[00:11:58] So keep going. [00:12:00] Sorry.
[00:12:02]Cami Williams: [00:12:02] Basically, I think, I mean, politics can also get so dicey, especially now, but if anything, it's just entertaining, like seeing different conversations on Twitter. I feel like that's probably as real as you can get. Versus watching the debate on CNN or something.
[00:12:18] Joel Marcey: [00:12:18] I agree. Right. Any, and that's true.
[00:12:20] Like any debate, you see on CNN, you know you, if you're like me, it might be on, but you also have your phone and you're watching Twitter and seeing what people are thinking. Right, exactly.
[00:12:30]Cami Williams: [00:12:30] Yeah. Just also, it also kind of helps take you outside your own bubble because whatever your political affiliation is, I'm sure if you search for articles or ads do you kind of get ones that are tailored to you? But on Twitter, I feel like you get the real deal opinions from the public, which is interesting to say the least.
[00:12:52] Joel Marcey: [00:12:52] Yup. A hundred percent agree with you there, Cami. Um, so I, I actually do have a couple, uh, you know, or I [00:13:00] did, or I do, I don't even know.
[00:13:01] I haven't used them in a while. Like an extra Twitter account that I'm holding to see if I ever want to use it for like politics or something. I don't really do anything with it, but ever if I ever leave tech and I like run, you know, go into politics full time or something, maybe account will come out. I don't know.
[00:13:20] Cami Williams: [00:13:20] Very nice so you have a fake Twitter, you have a Fwitter?
[00:13:25] Joel Marcey: [00:13:25] I don't know if it's, I guess it's fake. I don't know if fake is the right word. Like my name's in it, you know, like, I don't want to necessarily give the handle out yet cause I don't want people to go into it. But it's like if you would look at the infer infographics of the Twitter handle, you'd see my real name.
[00:13:43] Cami Williams: [00:13:43] Interesting. Okay. Nice. Alternate personality.
[00:13:47] Joel Marcey: [00:13:47] Alternate personality. Yes. Yeah. But I haven't used it really yet, and I'm not sure I'm going to. Um, but it's there if I need it. So
[00:13:57] Cami Williams: [00:13:57] good to have a backup.
[00:13:58] Joel Marcey: [00:13:58] Yes. Um, [00:14:00] so Cami, uh, what do you like about developer advocacy and as an alternative, or maybe an added question to that, is there anything you wish was different in that world?
[00:14:14] Cami Williams: [00:14:14] Yeah. I, so when I was a software engineer, um, I really liked coding and solving problems that were real, but I felt like there was so much more I could do, um, especially, you know, at, at least sharing what I was doing and teaching people about, uh, the different types of software engineering and intricacies behind that.
[00:14:41] And so. When I started my career, it was honestly just to raise awareness towards, especially underrepresented minorities about what it's like having a career in software engineering, and I realized that that was what I wanted to do. And I [00:15:00] discovered developer advocacy, just being a part of the hackathon and conference world.
[00:15:06] You know, when you would go to conferences and see people speaking and they would have this title, it was kind of like, Oh, this is an engineer whose job it is to go and speak. So that was the stereotype I had in my head. Um, and then when I finally. Found a full time role behind that. I realized it was so much more, uh, it was helping strategize behind a product, but then also hacking with the product and working with it, creating a consumable space for developers to onboard to said product.
[00:15:38] And so I, I liked how well rounded and like how well rounded the role is. I feel like you get a taste for everything and you work with so many cross functional partners, it, it really helps you to understand how business works. I always say, if you want to do a startup, you should try being a developer advocate first because you [00:16:00] really have to have empathy, not just for your customer, not just for the external developer, but also all of these stakeholders internally and figure out how to formulate a strategy that adheres to all of these different roles.
[00:16:15] So I feel like being a developer advocate, at least for me, has made me a more well rounded engineer and kind of helped me to think more critically about the engineering decisions that I contribute to. I think as with anything, it would be great to see more diversity in advocacy. It, it's hard. You know, when you're the only woman on the team, which I've been numerous times, or when you were the only female speaking on a panel or at a conference.
[00:16:48] Uh, but that extends beyond just gender. It goes to race. It goes to, um, the different cultures, even just where you're from. Something that I've [00:17:00] kind of been thinking about a lot that I haven't for awhile is just localization of content, you know, so diversity and the language offering of your content. Um, it's difficult too, because as relatively new as the tech industry is, developer advocacy is such a new role.
[00:17:21] And. So we're all still learning. I recently went to DevRelCon London, and it was kind of a meeting of minds of everybody who is in the developer relations space, which is also just another question, the difference between devrel, advocacy, evangelism, et cetera. But one of the interesting conversations that came up was how do we measure the success of our role, which you know, you can apply different numbers to. But at the end of the day, a lot of it is just the sentiment of customers and the feedback you get from customers. And sometimes it's hard to measure [00:18:00] something like that. And so I feel like the role is going to evolve a lot over the next couple of years, but I really hope that in doing so, it evolves according to the perspectives and opinions of a diverse group and not just representing one specific type of programmer or developer or anybody in the tech industry. I hope whatever the role evolves into in the future and what the industry standard becomes, um, is an output of multiple people in multiple different types of people's opinions.
[00:18:38] Joel Marcey: [00:18:38] I think. You, you're, you're, um, you know, your topic about diversity. It made me think a little bit like, a lot of people think of diversity and just like you said, ethnic, race, gender, those types of things. But when you said like, diversity of content and how you just, you know, how you portray [00:19:00] content like through localization.
[00:19:01] That's something I don't think a lot of people might consider as part of quote unquote diversity issue. But, um, you're, I think you're a hundred percent correct, right? Because you, you're, if you don't have a diverse set of content, whether it's in a different language or anything like that, then you are kind of limiting the reach of what you want to portray. So that was, that was very interesting, Cami. That's a very good point. Yeah, that was a really good point. I ever thought about that. No, no. I like, I like that. That's a it, yeah. Diversity is, uh, you know, it's far, it reaches far and wide and not just kind of the kind of the normal things you might think about.
[00:19:45] Cami Williams: [00:19:45] yeah, I think it's great. For this role because it's one of the few roles I think in the tech industry that can be so global. You know, obviously you can have engineers anywhere, but with advocacy, it's almost a [00:20:00] requirement. Like if, if you have a growing team, you need to have developer advocates everywhere.
[00:20:04] So that way you know that you are inclusive of everyone, which is a hard task to have, especially if you're a growing startup. One of. When I joined a startup right out of college, that was one of the first tasks I had was I had to go to Europe and travel to these various countries that we knew that we were in hitting, um, localize the content for them and then try to deliver it sometimes with the translator or back when I studied Spanish, I don't speak Spanish well, but at the time I made an attempt, um, and localized content that way.
[00:20:39] So it's definitely something that I've been thinking about, especially recently, how do you do that and how do you do that? Especially if your team is all in one spot. It's. It's really hard. And I don't know if many people have solved that beyond just using platforms that are able to do it for you.
[00:20:57] Joel Marcey: [00:20:57] I think it's one of those goals [00:21:00] that might be not, it might not be a hundred per ever a hundred percent attainable.
[00:21:05] Um, you know, like the diversity goals that you might have, but you always strive to kind of reach the rainbow, um, so to speak. You know, you're never going to get, you're never gonna get to the rainbow to get that pot of gold, but you really keep it. Just go and get, try to get as close as possible.
[00:21:22] Cami Williams: [00:21:22] Totally.
[00:21:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and also just not having that be a secondary or tertiary goal, having that be a primary goal is something that is so difficult to, because it's hard to achieve. I remembered though, I think it was Tracy Chu, that said this at all things open, where she said, you're doing a major disservice to your company if diversity is not your primary goal, which it's so true because you can literally just point that to anything, having all of these perspectives and whatnot. It's, uh, it's doing a [00:22:00] disservice to your company if you're just tailoring it to one type of person.
[00:22:04] Joel Marcey: [00:22:04] Yeah. And I think, yeah, and I think, um, there's a lot of work to be done from not just like big companies like
[00:22:48] Cami Williams: [00:22:48] Yeah, definitely. So with that in mind then, um, Joel, what has been kind of like your favorite initiative to be a part of or organization that [00:23:00] you've seen that has promoted DNI, diversity and inclusion in the tech industry?
[00:23:07] Joel Marcey: [00:23:07] Oh, wow. Um,
[00:23:08] Cami Williams: [00:23:08] I know it's not good to say favorite.
[00:23:10] So maybe the most top of mind, one that you can think, let's not say favorite, but most top of mind.
[00:23:17] Joel Marcey: [00:23:17] Mmm. Can it be something that is related to the work that I at the company that I work for? Is that okay?
[00:23:26] Cami Williams: [00:23:26] That would in fact, be preferred Joel.
[00:23:30] Joel Marcey: [00:23:30] Right. So I am really impressed about. How the folks that are managing the React project are trying to, um, basically raise the issue, um, and promote diversity in a really thoughtful way.
[00:23:51] Um, so, uh, for example, I think it was just a couple of weekends ago, right? Um, the Women of React virtual [00:24:00] conference happened. Awesome. Right. That was, that was amazing. And, uh, you know, we had people from
[00:24:20] Um. So I'm kind of proud. I mean, I might not be directly involved in that project per se, but I'm kind of proud that we as an open source program at
[00:24:56] And I, I feel, like I said, I don't feel like there's ever going to be like the [00:25:00] panacea that solves it for everybody. But I think we're trying to find out ways, um, and trying to experiment with, um, different initiatives that will, um, kind of bring more inclusive inclusivity to, um, to what we have. Um,
[00:25:19] Cami Williams: [00:25:19] Totally.
[00:25:20] So, yeah, it's funny working in open source professionally. It's the whole point of open source that it's by everyone and for everyone. Like that is the masthead of open source and it's, it's crazy if you see, you know, these problems and open source being inclusivity when that was what it was created for, for everybody to have the opportunity and for everybody to be a part of the conversation.
[00:25:50] Um, I love the Women of React conferences. Great. Because I think that it just hit home that everybody should be a part of that conversation. It was a great [00:26:00] event.
[00:26:00] Joel Marcey: [00:26:00] Yeah, it was. It was really well thought out. Well put on. Um, speakers were great. Um, yeah, it was just a genuine good time.
[00:26:11] Cami Williams: [00:26:11] I know some of you listening who haven't seen it.
[00:26:13] Go check it out. It's on YouTube.
[00:26:14] Joel Marcey: [00:26:14] Yeah. I think your sister was MC, right?
[00:26:17] Cami Williams: [00:26:17] She was fun puns and,
[00:26:21] Joel Marcey: [00:26:21] yeah, and there's something there. And you'll learn something. There's a potato thing that goes on. I think you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll hear all about it and see all about it when it happens. Yeah. Um, but, but just to close on the topic of diversity, I think, um, it's something I feel like, and you know, we work together, Cami, I feel like at least it's something that has been brought to, brought to bear more, um, especially since you've joined and the other advocates have joined, um, the team. I feel like now this is a, this is an issue that we are taking really seriously and trying to figure out the right [00:27:00] solutions for. So definitely.
[00:27:01] Cami Williams: [00:27:01] Yeah.
[00:27:02] Joel Marcey: [00:27:02] Yeah. Um, so I think that was your question to me. So I think it's my turn again. Okay. Okay. Um, so you, you like to write code. Sometimes. Right.
[00:27:15] You've been known, so you're stranded on an island, right? And you have, you have a laptop, I guess, because we haven't figured out how to like kind of write code, you know, just from our brainwaves or anything. But you have a laptop, you can only use one programming language. You only have one programming language on your Island.
[00:27:34] Which one is it?
[00:27:37] Cami Williams: [00:27:37] Yeah. Um, so I've gotten some heat for this answer before, especially from some friends, but at the end of the day right now, 2020 Cami will always answer that question [00:28:00] being Java. Um, I know that's like old school answer. Why would people use Java anymore for languages? I honestly, so it was the first language I learned.
[00:28:14] Um, I, so I got started in programming because there was this Nancy Drew computer game that I played in like seventh or eighth grade. And in order to open up this video game, you had to edit the Java code. It was insane game ahead of its time. And. So for that reason, it's always had a soft spot in my heart spot in my heart, that game.
[00:28:38] And then also Java. But it was also the language they first learned how to use, um, in, in classes and in school. And it was the. Language that used in my first job. And also it's the language that I think that everybody should learn first, which again, might be a testament to the fact that I went to, you [00:29:00] know, a traditional school.
[00:29:01] I didn't go through bootcamp and I went into a role that was with my first, like real big company industry job. I worked on a product that was a little bit older and so relatively speaking, and so it was written in Java, but I truly think that you can learn all of the necessary programming concepts effectively and easily with that language.
[00:29:28] It's so readable to me. Uh, like it's really fun to write algorithms with that and you can accomplish a lot to front end and back end with it. I just, I, it has a soft spot in my heart. I don't use it anymore, but when I am teaching people, or I have volunteered at local high schools, I always use Java to solve problems and teach people,
[00:29:52] Joel Marcey: [00:29:52] you're going to get the arguments, I bet from the functional language people.
[00:30:00][00:29:59] You're welcome. That argument. Um, uh, I think Java's perfectly fine. Like very general purpose. You can do a lot with it. You're on your island. What do you, you know, so I was thinking about this question when I was asking you and I was like.
[00:30:15] Cami Williams: [00:30:15] What is your answer?
[00:30:50] You know, I was thinking maybe, but that was like going like you, uh, and I was going through my history. I'm like, okay, well, I believe. I, I'm a little more [00:31:00] dated than you. So Java wasn't my first, I was like, you know, Pascal and Smalltalk and, um, I don't even know, like, I dunno if you would consider like the work that I did as a kid, you know, using like, Logo. I think like, you know, the turtle, you know. Um, so anyway, so I'm not sure I want those. I mean, small talk. If you really want to learn object oriented programming and you wanted to, you were on your Island yet all the time. Smalltalk, pretty dope. But, um, uh, I would probably, I could definitely agree with you that Java might be the right one.
[00:32:04] Cami Williams: [00:32:04] See, I, I'm picturing this Island, I have no internet connection, and so it's all based on what's in my head.
[00:32:11] Joel Marcey: [00:32:11] Ah yes,
[00:32:29] Joel Marcey: [00:32:29] You, you are really coming up with like the requirements for this question.
[00:32:34] Like I didn't say anything about internet access, so that's a good point. Do you have some sort of satellite that can be here? Get your 500 kilobyte kilobits per second down so you can actually get to the online docs or something? Right.
[00:32:47] Cami Williams: [00:32:47] See, this is actually. A really good interview tip. For those of you who are interviewing for a position, if somebody asked you an ambiguous question, you can either state your assumptions right off the bat or ask them [00:33:00] based upon the assumptions you're making.
[00:33:02] Like you shouldn't just riff. So I actually failed that interview.
[00:33:06] Joel Marcey: [00:33:06] well, um, I'm gonna look at a glass glass half full. You, you pass, because I didn't say there had to be any assumptions. I just left it open ended for you. You could have said anything you want, so maybe it was a bad interview question.
[00:33:22] Cami Williams: [00:33:22] Oh, man.
[00:33:22] Yeah. So either way
[00:33:23] Joel Marcey: [00:33:23] we're both, we both failed or we both.
[00:33:30] Yeah. All right. So thank you for that. Um, I think it's your turn. I have, I have like, I have two more questions for you. Um,
[00:33:38] Cami Williams: [00:33:38] I do have a question, um, of the languages that you have recently dabbled with, what is one that you think is worthwhile for people to learn?
[00:33:51] Joel Marcey: [00:33:51] Oh, wow. Okay. Sorry. I have to, maybe I have to, um, get rid of biases.
[00:33:57] So, um, [00:34:00] I'm learning Rust right now. Um, yes. Because, um, the work that I'm doing at
[00:34:26] I mean, I knew a little bit, but I'm trying to really go deep into the, there's a, there's a book, there's like this Bible book called the Rust Programming Language that pretty much every Russ programmer has on their desk as I understand it. So I'm really. I'm in the middle of it. Um, you know, chapter 11 or 12.
[00:35:48] Um, and you, I would definitely say you should check that out as well.
[00:35:54] Cami Williams: [00:35:54] Nice. Right on. So in case any of you heard me chuckle when he mentioned Docusaurus, I [00:36:00] suspect, uh, Joel is a die hard Docusaurus guy. So it's just like, it's not a conversation with Joel unless Docusaurus is brought up.
[00:36:09] Joel Marcey: [00:36:09] I can bring Docusaurus into any conversation I, I'm so, I could probably weave it into a political conversation or a reality television show conversation if needed. Yeah. Not that I'm trying to like tout it or at all or anything, but you know, it's, it's like one of those things like, you know, it's your, it's your baby, it's your, you're wanting to nurture it.
[00:36:30] You always want to talk about it. Yes.
[00:36:34] Cami Williams: [00:36:34] You named your child,
[00:36:35] Joel Marcey: [00:36:35] Right? Yeah. The mascot's name is slash Oh, you know. First third, your first child will be named slash or something, right? Yeah. I think that was the Guns and Roses guitarist, I think, if I remember correctly. Slash yeah, yeah. Axl Rose and Slash that's older reference, but, um, yeah.
[00:36:54] So, um, but yeah, I did hear the chuckle, by the way.
[00:36:57] Um, um, [00:37:00] so my second to last question for you, Cami, is what is your favorite non-work hobby?
[00:37:08] Cami Williams: [00:37:08] See. So my typical answer when I want to seem like in with the cool kids in the tech industry is I play video games, work on mechanical keyboards, read books. But I want to answer a little bit more truthfully, especially now that we're indoors. I am someone who likes to start a lot of things just for the heck of it. So I have, I paint a lot. I do a ton of puzzles. Puzzles has been my favorite thing, probably in this quarantine. Watch reality TV. That's been delightful.
[00:37:47] I also, I really like to experiment with makeup. Back in the day I thought that I was going to go to cosmetology school, but I ended up dropping out instead to take calculus. So I am [00:38:00] a beauty school dropout, as my parents always liked to tease me about. Uh, so all of that has kind of come to come to head, especially with this quarantine.
[00:38:11] I realized that I am a hobbyist, but not with one particular thing. I do a lot of things only a little bit. Uh, but that said, I still definitely play a lot of video games. If any of you are looking for a new video game, if you have an iPad or a PC, get Rollercoaster Tycoon and let me know what level that you get to because I am currently stuck on the volcanic paradise level, and I would love to see screenshots of some of the roller coasters you built because I'm
[00:38:43] Joel Marcey: [00:38:43] So is that a high level in that game? I haven't played it.
[00:38:46] Cami Williams: [00:38:46] It's so with rollercoaster tycoon you have, it's actually, it's well, Volcania, there's volcanic paradise, but then Volcania that's the level I'm stuck on.
[00:38:55] When you build roller. There are prebuilt ones where you [00:39:00] can build custom ones, and then this level specifically, they have six unfinished rollercoasters and you have to finish the rollercoasters with an excitement rating of 6.7 out of 10 but in order to get that excitement rating, your intensity rating and your nausea rating has to be low.
[00:39:21] Which is impossible. That means it has to be exciting without getting people sick.
[00:39:26] Joel Marcey: [00:39:26] Right. How is that positive or an oxymoron something? What's going on?
[00:39:31] Cami Williams: [00:39:31] I am on year 10 in that individual level, which typically your level your year marks only lasts to three but I am at 10 and I am having so much trouble. I have like 50 grand in the bank, which is also impossible, but it's just because it's been going on and on and on forever.
[00:39:50] So if any of you play Roller Coaster Tycoon, please send me this
[00:39:53] Joel Marcey: [00:39:53] Alright community. Let's help Cami out here. She needs to get past this.
[00:39:58] Cami Williams: [00:39:58] Yeah.
[00:39:59] Yeah. It's [00:40:00] been. It's been challenging. I got a puppy to distract myself from Roller Coaster Tycoon
[00:40:05] Joel Marcey: [00:40:05] a puppy as it is its own roller coaster,
[00:40:10] Cami Williams: [00:40:10] and admittedly a lot easier to deal with.
[00:40:15] What about you? What have you been doing in the quarantine?
[00:40:19] Joel Marcey: [00:40:19] Oh, yeah. So there has been some puzzles. Um, yeah, so that's, uh. The family completed a thousand piece harry puzzle. A Harry Potter puzzle. Yeah. We're going to frame it. Yeah. Cause we're so proud of ourselves. Um, I didn't really do much with it. I was like more of a cheerleader, but, you know, I think, you know, you know, the person on the bench is always like, that's an important job.
[00:40:44] Right? But so, yes. Yes, that's right.
[00:40:49] Um, we built a. Cat house. Sort of thing. Right. So we have two cats and um, so it's not like a cat house. Like you would think you had to go to PetSmart and [00:41:00] see like those, those tall, carpeted cat houses. It's like one of those things where you take out the screen from your window, you plug in this square box that was built, um, and, and you put like screens.
[00:41:15] Basically the box is made of screen so the cats can see out of it, so they can basically feel like they're getting outside of the house. So it's like, it's like one half foot long.
[00:41:24] Cami Williams: [00:41:24] So you, yeah. you have this protrusion in or outside of your house.
[00:41:29] Joel Marcey: [00:41:29] That is correct. That is right. This is very classy. You can, if you come into the backyard, you'll see this, these legs with tennis balls at the bottom.
[00:41:38] They're uneven and it's, it's a, it's, it's a masterclass. Um, wow. Yeah. Um, so
[00:41:45] Cami Williams: [00:41:45] yeah, that's awesome. For the cat, we do the cats like it.
[00:41:49] Joel Marcey: [00:41:49] They love it. Like one slept in, one slept in it for two hours. I was like, wow. That's amazing. Yeah. Um, uh, the other thing I've done more, and I, and I hated it in [00:42:00] the past before, uh, quarantine was run.
[00:42:03] So I've done like, I started like. Yeah, I'm not a good runner. And I said, I'm going to start, I'm going to make it to like a mile. So I like start at 0.67. I made a mile, um, you know, a couple of weeks later. So I bet I've been running like three to four times a week for the last couple of months. And now I'm like, yeah, I'm up to three and a half miles now, so like,
[00:42:26] Cami Williams: [00:42:26] Oh my God.
[00:42:27] Joel Marcey: [00:42:27] Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. And
[00:42:28] Cami Williams: [00:42:28] I'm not a runner either. I'm the type of person that runs for two minutes and then has to lay down.
[00:42:34] Joel Marcey: [00:42:34] Yeah, I feel the same way still. It's just like, it's like, but now I'm running like 40 minutes and I feel like I really need to lay down and I'm really slow Cami, like, you know, my per mile rate is not Olympic. It's like, you know, 12 to 13 minutes. Maybe it's more of a trot. I don't know. I'll consider it a run. Um, but yeah, so [00:43:00] I'm between the, you know, the puzzles and the cat and the running and watching a bit of TV and reality shows like you do. That's, that's been, that's been my quarantine.
[00:43:09] Cami Williams: [00:43:09] Um, what's your favorite reality show that you've been watching? If you're not too embarrassed to say.
[00:43:15] Joel Marcey: [00:43:15] Oh man. So I w okay, I'm going to rephrase the question, and I'm not going to say favorite, but I'm gonna say what I did watch to conclusion. Yes, it was Love is Blind on Netflix.
[00:43:30] Cami Williams: [00:43:30] Trash.
[00:43:32] Joel Marcey: [00:43:32] Yes. Um, wow. Yeah. See, see, see, now I got to decide where I need to cut that out or not.
[00:43:42] But you asked me a question. I thought I had to be honest about the question. I know there's like a new one on that's like even more trashy on Netflix that I haven't, I don't even know how I'm going to start.
[00:43:53] Cami Williams: [00:43:53] Don't start it. One is actually like, I can't watch this. My brain hurts.
[00:44:00][00:44:00] Joel Marcey: [00:44:00] Yes. I probably won't start it.
[00:44:01] I think the Love is Blind is, is as it's scarred, it scarred me a little bit though.
[00:44:09] Cami Williams: [00:44:09] Yeah, it's, it's cute, but then it gets real like a little too real. Like when, I mean, I, I like, you know, the Bachelor and all those dating shows, but this one, it's like, Oh no, you're going to get engaged, meet each other's families, move in together, and then set a wedding date.
[00:44:26] It was like, Oh my gosh, there's no way out of this. It was a little intense for me.
[00:44:33] Joel Marcey: [00:44:33] You're in pods for three episodes, and Oh my gosh. Now it's like a real thing. You're meeting family and all these things and you're like, Oh yeah, I cringed a few times just by the way, watching.
[00:44:42] Cami Williams: [00:44:42] So it's not a reality TV show unless you do.
[00:44:47] Joel Marcey: [00:44:47] Yes. Right. That's right. Um, so. Can we, I'm gonna end with like two flashlight, really quick hit questions. Like, you know, they almost be like one word answers, but maybe the last [00:45:00] one might be a little more than one word. So spaces or tabs?
[00:45:04] Cami Williams: [00:45:04] So,
[00:45:05] Joel Marcey: [00:45:05] Oh, I thought it was going to be one word.
[00:45:08] Cami Williams: [00:45:08] Okay. Okay. I don't want to get this wrong.
[00:45:10] I read once. Somewhere that tabs was accessible. So I always say tabs. You're saying that that's right, cause now I'm questioning myself
[00:45:20] Joel Marcey: [00:45:20] I say spaces. So we could argue, we
[00:45:22] Cami Williams: [00:45:22] We can argue, but whoever is right about the accessibility is right.
[00:45:26] Joel Marcey: [00:45:26] We should probably put a poll up.
[00:45:28] Cami Williams: [00:45:28] Yeah, yeah. That's actually good. Maybe I'll tweet that later today.
[00:45:32] Joel Marcey: [00:45:32] Yeah, we should put a spaces or tabs. Oh, okay. I thought, I thought I was going to be a quick, easy answer.
[00:45:38] Cami Williams: [00:45:38] Okay. Ongoing debate.
[00:45:41] Joel Marcey: [00:45:41] Um, the next question I have is, um, IDE, like VS Code or like terminal based editor like vim.
[00:45:51] Cami Williams: [00:45:51] See if I were to reference my previous answer about my favorite programming language, I would have to say Eclipse, but I haven't [00:46:00] used Eclipse in a really long time.
[00:46:01] I use Sublime regularly. I would, um, do I want to be controversial right now? Why not? YOLO. I would rather use. Anything other than VS Code. I don't enjoy using VS Code. I would use vim. I would use Emacs. I know what it is. I'm not a VS Code person. I know I'm going to get heat for that, but YOLO that is a hill I am dying on.
[00:46:27] Joel Marcey: [00:46:27] To die on the no VS Code. I see.
[00:46:31] Cami Williams: [00:46:31] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:32] Joel Marcey: [00:46:32] I love the VS Code. This is interesting.
[00:46:34] Cami Williams: [00:46:34] People do. I see. I feel like, again, this is one of those things where I never really used it, and then once I did it, I just felt like there was too much of a barrier to entry and I would rather just use vim than something like the VS Code.
[00:46:50] Joel Marcey: [00:46:50] Wow. You're going to make, so you know you're going to, it's going to be a debate when people hear this, but you're going to make a lot of fans within
[00:47:09] Cami Williams: [00:47:09] Right on. I don't know if they're the friends that I want. Just kidding. Let's hang out.
[00:47:15] Joel Marcey: [00:47:15] Right. My, um, my, uh, my son came in here, he heard the question about spaces and tabs and he walks next to me and does this T symbol next to me. So he's a tabs person.
[00:47:26] Cami Williams: [00:47:26] Right. Is this the son that streams?
[00:47:29] Joel Marcey: [00:47:29] This is son of the streams on Twitch.
[00:47:31] Cami Williams: [00:47:31] Yes. He's awesome.
[00:47:32] Joel Marcey: [00:47:32] I'm like, dude, I don't know if I'm teaching you wrong. What's going on? Are you saying tabs because you press the tab key or what? I'm gonna have to figure out what's going on here. Cause you know you can convert tabs to spaces. You can do this. This is a thing. Right. Okay.
[00:47:48] Cami Williams: [00:47:48] Yeah. If any of you also like tabs, then follow Joel's son Twitch.
[00:47:53] His username. It's, it's like X, X, chaotic beast, 19 X X. Is that [00:48:00] right?
[00:48:00] Joel Marcey: [00:48:00] Yeah. It's something like that. I think if you search for chaotic beasts, you'll find night with the 19 you'll find the prefix and stuff. I think it's X, X something.
[00:48:09] Cami Williams: [00:48:09] Yeah, he's great. He streams Fortnite. He's really good.
[00:48:12] Go watch.
[00:48:13] Joel Marcey: [00:48:13] He's good at Fortnite.
[00:48:14] Thanks for the plug. I'll tell, I'll tell. I'll tell. I'll tell Jamie that you did that. He would like that. Alright. Um, do you have any last questions for me or, um, are you good?
[00:48:26] Cami Williams: [00:48:26] No, I'm definitely not good. I need to know your favorite color or I'll die.
[00:48:31] Joel Marcey: [00:48:31] Really? Oh, red.
[00:48:35] Cami Williams: [00:48:35] Interesting.
[00:48:36] Joel Marcey: [00:48:36] And it's not because I've always been red.
[00:48:39] It used to be blue.
[00:48:41] Cami Williams: [00:48:41] Okay. Blue is cool.
[00:48:42] Joel Marcey: [00:48:42] Okay. All right. Now I know this can't be a one word answer. Fine. Okay. Here we go. Um. I'm colorblind, so, you know, there's like kind of some issues with colors, but, so basically, um, I think, you know, red green is bad for [00:49:00] me. Um, but my Alma mater at NC state is red. So I chose favorite colors based upon situations based upon whether I feel like I'm seeing them correctly.
[00:49:16] Um, so I, I felt blue at some point was my favorite color probably, cause I liked a couple of sports teams that were blue. Then I went to college and my, you know, it was red. Red's pretty cool.
[00:49:27] Um, so yes. So it's still red.
[00:49:29] Cami Williams: [00:49:29] My school's color had red too.
[00:49:31] Joel Marcey: [00:49:31] What's your favorite color? Is your favorite color red?
[00:49:34] Cami Williams: [00:49:34] No, I, right now it's green.
[00:49:37] I go back and forth, but I'm pretty sure that like, but not like lime green, like a nice Emerald green.
[00:49:45] Joel Marcey: [00:49:45] Emerald green?
[00:49:47] Cami Williams: [00:49:47] But also that kind of has to do, my Harry Potter house is Slytherin and so I have an allegiance to the color green.
[00:49:57] Joel Marcey: [00:49:57] So Slitherin is a good house.
[00:49:59] Cami Williams: [00:49:59] It is.
[00:49:59] Joel Marcey: [00:49:59] It's, [00:50:00] it's, it's, uh, it's a lot of people, a lot of people will say what's Slytherin that's like the evil house, but it's, is it a misunderstood house would you say?
[00:50:10] Cami Williams: [00:50:10] Honestly, no.
[00:50:10] Joel Marcey: [00:50:10] Is it the evil house?
[00:50:11] Cami Williams: [00:50:11] I mean,
[00:50:14] I think if you asked my family, I was like the bad kid growing up. Not like I, when I say bad, it's like. Probably the worst thing I did was steal a Snickers bar, but, um, I feel like, I feel like honestly, Harry Potter house is more, reveals more about a person than like Myers-Briggs or your astrological sign.
[00:50:38] I feel like. People who are Slytherin wly and you can kind of be like, Oh yeah, I could tell.
[00:50:43] Joel Marcey: [00:50:43] So the sorting hat chooses Slytherin for you, you're basically saying,
[00:50:47] Cami Williams: [00:50:47] yeah,
[00:50:48] Joel Marcey: [00:50:48] no doubt, no doubt, no doubt,
[00:50:50] Cami Williams: [00:50:50] no doubt in my mind. Also, I've taken like the official quiz so many times and have tried to answer as other houses cause at first I didn't want to accept it, but [00:51:00] I've always gotten Slytherin no matter what.
[00:51:02] Joel Marcey: [00:51:02] So,
[00:51:03] so do you feel like it doesn't like Hufflepuff or in the, what's the other one? I forget the other house now.
[00:51:09] Cami Williams: [00:51:09] Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Gryffindor
[00:51:10] Joel Marcey: [00:51:10] Ravenclaw. Yeah, don't, yeah. So don't, doesn't, doesn't Hufflepuff of Ravenclaw get the bad end of the stick on these things? Like it's either, it's either, you know, Slytherin, or it's, you know,
[00:51:22] Cami Williams: [00:51:22] Gryffindor
[00:51:22] Joel Marcey: [00:51:22] Gryffindor.
[00:51:24] Cami Williams: [00:51:24] Yeah. Um, I have, this might be a good poll. I have come to the conclusion that most engineers or engineering leaders are Ravenclaws. That has been like in my experience thus far. True. Yeah. Yeah. Almost granted, I don't know what our current manager is, but all of my managers have been Ravenclaw. Um, when I worked at the startup, our CEO, I'm pretty sure was Ravenclaw.
[00:51:56] Joel Marcey: [00:51:56] And you did, and you found this out, like through some online quiz, you're saying?
[00:52:00][00:52:00] Cami Williams: [00:52:00] Yeah, I usually, I haven't done it for our team yet, but I usually mandate that everybody on the team or company takes the quiz and then I will have some fight.
[00:52:11]Joel Marcey: [00:52:11] We have to take the quiz.
[00:52:12]Cami Williams: [00:52:12] We do, I have the quiz. I actually have it saved to my computer wherever I go.
[00:52:16] It's one of those things like. When you, when I get a new computer, I always transfer it over, so I'll share it with everyone. Maybe that'll be a tweet to what each of us are.
[00:52:25] Joel Marcey: [00:52:25] I'm telling you, social, our social media presence is just going to, it's skyrocketing.
[00:52:30] Cami Williams: [00:52:30] It's going to pop. It's going to grow. What house are you, do you know?
[00:52:35]Joel Marcey: [00:52:35] No, I haven't taken any quiz. I mean, I always just, I need to know.
[00:52:39] Cami Williams: [00:52:39] Yeah, buckle up because your life's about to change.
[00:52:41] Joel Marcey: [00:52:41] Oh my God. Okay. All right. I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm nervous. I thought this whole podcast thing is making me clammy. You know, this house thing is like making me really sweaty. I don't
[00:52:51] Cami Williams: [00:52:51] For real get ready in this all like either ruin or what's the other word?
[00:52:57] It'll probably ruin our team dynamic, [00:53:00] but hopefully it'll bring us closer together.
[00:53:03] Joel Marcey: [00:53:03] We'll make a positive out of anything.
[00:53:05] Cami Williams: [00:53:05] Yes, yes. Yeah, exactly.
[00:53:07] Joel Marcey: [00:53:07] Cool. Well, Cami, this has been, this has been fun. Honestly, I think it's just like the most conversational podcast I've done. So it's really, it's just, I felt loose, felt comfortable.
[00:53:18] I think my hands became less sweaty as we went along. You know, we were just shooting the breeze, you know,
[00:53:24] Cami Williams: [00:53:24] the breeze has been shot,
[00:53:25] Joel Marcey: [00:53:25] The breeze has been shot. Um, so I think that's basically wraps this up, but. I think there might be something else I want to talk about. Oh, yeah. So you know how Steve jobs, you know, he did the one more thing.
[00:53:39] I think I do have one more thing and I'm so, I'm gonna, I'm going to say it now and I'm like really giddy and excited. And like as we were doing the podcast, I was. You know, I kind of want to just, you know, blurt it out, but I didn't cause I had some self control. Um, Cami, you're going to be co-hosting the diff moving [00:54:00] forward.
[00:54:01] I hope you knew that.
[00:54:01] Cami Williams: [00:54:01] Hi everyone, get used to my voice.
[00:54:04] Joel Marcey: [00:54:04] Right? I don't think people really understand like how much of a get this is right, cause you're, you're, no, you're just, you're, you're not only awesome, like behind the camera with all the videos and you're awesome on a microphone and stuff. You just. You just general, just general, great to listen to.
[00:54:21] Cami Williams: [00:54:21] Oh please.
[00:54:22] Joel Marcey: [00:54:22] So I don't, I'm not, I'm not trying to suck up or butter you up or anything. This is legit, legit feedback. Um, yeah. But I, I think, um, I'm excited to see what. Uh, what you do, like kind of interviews you come up with what content. So I'm really excited. I think, um, I've been admittedly kind of delinquent on The Diff for awhile and, um, I'm hoping that you can kind of bring some more order back to it.
[00:54:47] So, um, I think, uh, you know, we'll host some shows together. You could host some shows on your own, but I'm super excited about like, handing a lot of the reins over to you. So. Thank you. Yeah, I hope it's
[00:55:00][00:54:59] Cami Williams: [00:54:59] super excited to get started. I think this could be fun. And for any of you audiophiles out there, I'm sorry, I don't have a nice microphone yet.
[00:55:07] I promise it'll come soon.
[00:55:09]Joel Marcey: [00:55:09] Your microphone is pretty good.
[00:55:11]Cami Williams: [00:55:11] I read, I watched some videos about hosting podcasts and no matter what, all of the videos said, be prepared to get heat about your microphone no matter what.
[00:55:21] Joel Marcey: [00:55:21] I dunno. I got, I got the, I got a Rode microphone.
[00:55:23] Hopefully that's good enough. We'll find out when we edit this.
[00:55:27]Cami Williams: [00:55:27] Yeah, feedback is welcome.
[00:55:29]Joel Marcey: [00:55:29] Feedback is welcome. So, um, with that, uh, welcome Cami as, as a cohost. Yeah. I'm really excited. Uh, thanks for joining me this week. This conversation lasted longer than I thought. I think it was awesome and I'm glad it did. And um, yeah, we'll, uh, talk again soon. I really appreciate you joining me today.
[00:55:49]Cami Williams: [00:55:49] Yeah, thanks for having me, Joel, and thanks for letting me stay. I'm excited.
[00:55:54]Joel Marcey: [00:55:54] You are most welcome Cami. Talk to you soon.
[00:55:57] Cami Williams: [00:55:57] Bye.
[00:55:57] Joel Marcey: [00:55:57] Bye.
[00:55:58][00:56:00] Hi, this is Joel Marcey, creator and host of The Diff. If you like what you heard today, tell your friends, like it, share it, review it. Learn more about our program at opensource.fb.com. And if the content you heard today, or if any of our podcasts, pique your interest, check out facebook.com/careers to learn more about the challenges we're solving and running an open source program at scale.
[00:56:26] I'm out.